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Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success
(69 Comments) - Posted By: sLY1838 on 05/08/2014 3:06PM EDT
It’s official, Epic Games will be making Unreal Tournament 4. Generally speaking, the Pro Unreal community is interested and excited. For several years the PC FPS gaming community has been fed with rinse and repeat realistic shooters. The craving for an innovative, sci-fi, competitive shooter has been unbearable. Hopefully Epic Games has what it takes to satisfy the community.

With that said, I list to you below the three most important keys to make Unreal Tournament 4 a success.

Receive Consultation from the Competitive Community.
This is the most crucial and important key of the list, so it has been placed at the top. The Pro Unreal gaming community still exists today. It has actively been involved in Unreal Tournament gaming leagues since the start of Unreal Tournament. Click here to see for yourself.

While Epic games certainly has a skilled development staff and does a lot of things right, they have one major flaw. They put the thoughts and opinions from the competitive community on the backburner and seem to interact more with the casual gamer. This is a major flaw for several reasons.

- The casual gamer will be around for a month and then they are on to the next game.

- You alienate yourself from the core community. Failing to receive support from this community will result in a publicity nightmare.

- You are ignoring competitive gamers who have YEARS of experience competing in leagues and tournaments.

In the past, Epic Games has encouraged the competitive community to participate on their forums. The problem with this concept is that such posts get drowned by non-competitive players. So the original topic simply turns into a big argument which always results in the opposite of a productive conversation.

This time around, we encourage Epic Games to visit the ProUnreal forums and communicate with a few of our top players to get insight on what we want to see from a “pro gamer” point of view. iD Software did this very thing when making Quake 3. They would consult with the top Quake 2 players during the development process by flying them out for in person conversations. We hope Epic Games takes a similar stance while working on Unreal Tournament 4.

Give Server Admins Options
There are three eras of Unreal Tournament. Unreal Tournament, UT2003/2004, and Unreal Tournament 3. While all three of these games have similarities, they are also very different. The one that stands out as being the most different from the bunch is UT2003/UT2004.

We can all agree that Unreal Tournament 99 was a major success in the world of competitive gaming. The longevity of the game is proof (14 years of UT99 competitions and counting). UT2004 was also successful, but in a different way. It didn’t hit the heart of the core ProUnreal fan base, but it did reach a broader community when it introduced vehicle based mods such as vCTF and Onslaught. Unreal Tournament 3, while it had loads of potential, was simply an unfinished game. It was unfortunate, because the 50 Cal 1v1 Beta Demo tournament had the Pro Unreal competitive juices flowing!

Because all three of these games were different, the competitive community became HARSHLY split on what type of settings should be used in a competitive environment. This mostly existed in the CTF communities between UT99 and UT2004. In UT99, we grew accustomed to a variety of game mechanics that weren’t included in UT2004. Such things as launching your teammate far across the map by shooting them with 6 rockets, dropping flags out of windows, telepunting your translocator, piston launching teammates, dodge piston jumping, combo launching, piston boot jumps, and the list goes on. These game mechanics (while mostly being indirectly included in the game) were mostly purposely removed from UT2004 while a bunch of different “features” were added to the games (collecting pills to use for adrenaline combos, double dodging, wall dodging, shield gun, etc…). This left a bad taste in the mouths of core UT99 players because the game was not a proper sequel. In fact, it felt foreign. So what happened at that point was an immediate split in the community. Half of the community went to UT2004 while the other half stayed with UT99. This is something you DON’T want to happen with Unreal Tournament 4. The ultimate goal is to bring EVERYBODY in. How do you do this? Give server admins OPTIONS!

By giving server admins options to setup a server according to the competitive settings they have grown accustomed to over years of competition, this ensures that both communities have the opportunity to play the game in a way that they will enjoy. A good example is the translocator. The UT99 community like their translocator. It’s the absolute CORE of the UT99 CTF experience. They want the speed, trajectory, and fragging experience to be as similar to UT99 as possible. Most importantly, they do not want a limit on how many times you can shoot the translocator. The UT2004 community sees it in a completely different way. They want a translocator you can throw very far, but to have a limit on how many times you can use it. It’s simply a matter of opinion.

Server admins should be able to have a graphical user interface that lets them easily turn on/off different features, settings, or presets. Some examples would be:

- Translocator Style (UT99, UT2004).
- Team Boosting (ON/OFF).
- Piston Boot Jumping (ON/OFF).

You get the idea. Here’s a screenshot of Quake Living doing that exact thing:

Support the Game on a Competitive Level
This is something that Epic Games certainly has the opportunity to take advantage of this time around. Epic Games should take the initiative and host their own LAN tournaments much like iD Softare does with Quake 3/Quake Live till this very day. This keeps a level excitement amongst players which instills in them a “reason” to compete. Especially in a gaming era in which it is popular to stream gaming competitions. Unreal Tournament, while it has always been a community driven competitive shooter, never completely reached its full potential in the “pro circuit.” Sure, it made it to a few years of WCG and other similar competitions, but the longevity of it being a “pro” game ended. This blame has to fall on the shoulders of Epic Games. Not everything about the game should be community driven (see Counter-Strike Global Offensive).

In conclusion we all hope for a great competitive shooter that will successfully merge all of the Unreal Tournament communities into one, rather than splitting them into four.

You can see the announcement of Unreal Tournament 4 here: www.twitch.tv/unrealengine
Comments
 
#1 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: High Voltage on 05/08/2014 9:55PM EDT
Steve Polge said this on epic forums..
https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?4520-Competitive-Gameplay&p=29469&viewfull=1#post29469

In the near term, aspiring to be a competitive FPS means making sure we have balanced gameplay mechanics that reward a variety of play styles so that success is primarily determined by skill. Longer term, we'd love to support UT as an eSport game, and we'll need the community's help in designing and implementing some of the features that implies (like advanced match spectating/broadcasting).
 
#2 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: mintek on 05/08/2014 10:00PM EDT
Time to contact Steve Polge.
 
#3 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: High Voltage on 05/08/2014 10:14PM EDT
Signup on forums and send this guy a pm.

https://forums.unrealengine.com/
 
#4 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: m3ss on 05/08/2014 11:24PM EDT
Excellent, well-thought-out and well-written post, sLY. I pretty much agree on all points. There's an opportunity here to hopefully shape the course of the development of this game for the better. I realize there will likely need to be a lot of consolations made to find some middle ground between the UT99 and 2k4 core gameplay mechanics, but there is also a lot of potential with this development format if used properly. I'm extremely interested in getting as involved as possible with this process and I think adding visibility to the existing competitive UT community will help garner it more influence in the development of the game. I'm excited but also trying to temper my expectations in these early days.
 
#5 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: [Z]Mòó§ë on 05/09/2014 1:20AM EDT
Glad to see they are making another UT. I hope I enjoy this one.
 
#6 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: Sporx on 05/09/2014 6:39AM EDT
The best thing we can do now as a community is to sell ourselves to the mod community as a resource for map balance. Want to balance your map? Ask ProU. Someone ought to coordinate a post on those UE4 forums that we can all flood and rally around. We've already curated the best youtube to date. http://www.youtube.com/user/UT2004Community/ .

Where is Lotus ? Hes on steam all the time ? If he makes a post " I am the creator of UTcomp " will people not rally behind that? Isn't the incentive there for him? If he releases a mutator in any capacity on the workshop store they mentioned hed never have to work again?

Hell if we want the game to be balanced from the ground up mutator aside wouldn't being the creator of utcomp carry massive weight? He might get hired as a community lead and a mediator between what the comp scene wants/expects ?

We need someone... anyone really. But we need to establish the chains so ideas don't send the game flying into random game design from the get go.

BE PROACTIVE ! SELL YOURSELVES AND YOUR IDEAS! Just being LOUD can give Epic a sense of direction to seek some of you out.

Guys don't forget the aforementioned monetary incentive. Go LEARN!!! Lets make maps ! If anyone from this site has the know-how or the time do it ! Ill say it right now, if any of you make a map... a mutator.. push an idea i'm behind you. NA UT Community for LIFE!

GATHER AND PUSH GUYS ! FUCKING RALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: The community manager for this project is on our SteamGroup yknow !

http://steamcommunity.com/id/fl4k

We have a voice be fucking LOUD !!!!!
 
#7 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: Sonic|^ on 05/09/2014 9:31AM EDT
I'd have to see who epic decides to listen to before I start to care about this. As of right now the forums are a clusterfuck and there is no clear direction. I agree with pretty much everything sly said.
 
#8 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: sLY1838 on 05/09/2014 10:44AM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by Sporx
The best thing we can do now as a community is to sell ourselves to the mod community as a resource for map balance. Want to balance your map? Ask ProU. Someone ought to coordinate a post on those UE4 forums that we can all flood and rally around. We've already curated the best youtube to date. http://www.youtube.com/user/UT2004Community/ .

Where is Lotus ? Hes on steam all the time ? If he makes a post " I am the creator of UTcomp " will people not rally behind that? Isn't the incentive there for him? If he releases a mutator in any capacity on the workshop store they mentioned hed never have to work again?

Hell if we want the game to be balanced from the ground up mutator aside wouldn't being the creator of utcomp carry massive weight? He might get hired as a community lead and a mediator between what the comp scene wants/expects ?

We need someone... anyone really. But we need to establish the chains so ideas don't send the game flying into random game design from the get go.

BE PROACTIVE ! SELL YOURSELVES AND YOUR IDEAS! Just being LOUD can give Epic a sense of direction to seek some of you out.

Guys don't forget the aforementioned monetary incentive. Go LEARN!!! Lets make maps ! If anyone from this site has the know-how or the time do it ! Ill say it right now, if any of you make a map... a mutator.. push an idea i'm behind you. NA UT Community for LIFE!

GATHER AND PUSH GUYS ! FUCKING RALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: The community manager for this project is on our SteamGroup yknow !

http://steamcommunity.com/id/fl4k

We have a voice be fucking LOUD !!!!!


Do we really want Lotus' UTComp netcode? It's something that only works on hitscan weapons. Projectile weapons and the translocator were not impacted. So it turned UT2004 into a heavily hitscan oriented game. The only way to maintain balance is to keep it ping based.

I think the game will be popular enough to where we won't need to use such a netcode. TimTim's "NewNet" code for UT99 was a complete embarrassment. It also only worked correctly for hitscan weapons.
 
#9 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: CombatCarl on 05/09/2014 10:58AM EDT
Keep it "ping based?" That's easy to say when you're from Texas and a majority of games are played on Texas servers. The game play balance should be balanced as if it were LAN. UT99 was horribly unbalanced, and it worked. Weapon balance is over-rated. Map balance is under-rated.
 
#10 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: Sporx on 05/09/2014 11:17AM EDT
quote:
Do we really want Lotus' UTComp netcode? It's something that only works on hitscan weapons. Projectile weapons and the translocator were not impacted. So it turned UT2004 into a heavily hitscan oriented game. The only way to maintain balance is to keep it ping based.

I think the game will be popular enough to where we won't need to use such a netcode. TimTim's "NewNet" code for UT99 was a complete embarrassment. It also only worked correctly for hitscan weapons.


I'm not talking about netcode at all, we need people to step up and represent us as a competitive community to bust through the noise. Names carry weight.

All this talk about hitscan and netcode and movement schemes ... Stop approaching this with that mentality. We don't even know what the game is yet and you guys are trying to box it into preconceived notions of balance and shit. We can come to a general consensus on balance over time. I'm talking about breaking through the noise brother.

I mention Lotus again because of his association with UTcomp, thats it. It could be anyone whos relevant to the idea of competitive play really. But we need someone to echo our ideas .

As is anyone can just claim to be in the know. They arn't. Epic doesn't have an idea who to ask on these things, so be noisey !

Having played the game at WCG or ESWC or that shitty digital life tournament is way more precedence for having a say on balance then round faced ted the TAM guy whos spamming the forums as we speak. But epic doesn't know that... so .. how do we grab their attention ?

Edit - thats why im saying rally, lets organize a post we can all jump and bump to the top. Lets not come off as dicks who want things "our way" lets just straight up say.. this is the NA competitive scene, a small group of several hundred kids who have been together on IRC or ProU or whatever since the beginning.

Sense of direction for Epic more then for us. That or we just all shout into the sea of shit happening over there at the UE4 forum.
 
#11 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: Sporx on 05/09/2014 11:35AM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by CombatCarl
Keep it "ping based?" That's easy to say when you're from Texas and a majority of games are played on Texas servers. The game play balance should be balanced as if it were LAN. UT99 was horribly unbalanced, and it worked. Weapon balance is over-rated. Map balance is under-rated.


Map balance is vastly underrated. Theres a reason you see maps like DM13 in Quake. A map that omits railgun entirely and is small and claustrophobic ? Sounds like the antithesis of quake but nope! One of the most popular maps.

We never play with ideas like that, we don't even bother to experiment. Just gag at the movement and the weapons without trying and testing different ways of passively effecting those things. Maps for sure.
 
#12 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: m3ss on 05/09/2014 11:58AM EDT
Sporx makes some very good points in regards to giving the true competitive community a strong voice in the development of the game. I say "true" competitive community because I already see a thread on their forums dedicated to supposedly "competitive" players. Yet, the guy who started the thread goes on to say that the headshot should be removed from the game because it's random and most people don't aim for the head. WTF?!?! This is the kind of misinformation and casual mentality we are going to have combat vehemently in order to prevent poor design decisions. In order to do so we need to have people with real competitive credibility and a mature mentality grab Epic's attention early. Otherwise people like Mr. Headshots-Are-Random will control the decision-making.
 
#13 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: Sporx on 05/09/2014 12:02PM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by m3ss
Sporx makes some very good points in regards to giving the true competitive community a strong voice in the development of the game. I say "true" competitive community because I already see a thread on their forums dedicated to supposedly "competitive" players. Yet, the guy who started the thread goes on to say that the headshot should be removed from the game because it's random and most people don't aim for the head. WTF?!?! This is the kind of misinformation and casual mentality we are going to have combat vehemently in order to prevent poor design decisions. In order to do so we need to have people with real competitive credibility and a mature mentality grab Epic's attention early. Otherwise people like Mr. Headshots-Are-Random will control the decision-making.


Exactly what i'm saying. Would a post titled Creator of UTCOMP or whatever not carry weight and smash these kids down? It doesn't matter WHO posts it but right fucking here right fucking now we need to organize that effort so we can jump and bump the thing to the top.
FIGHT!

Edit:
We already have the most thorough curated video archive of competitive play on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/user/UT2004Community

Hello if we can pull that off we might as well associate ourselves with it.

Edit 2 - We were together through all of it. Everything from MJfossit going on tirades about murdering dawgpound IRL to watching UTV when it worked and when we had RadioITG doing their bad shoutcasts of what was happening ingame.

We really ought to defend it.
 
#14 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: m3ss on 05/09/2014 12:34PM EDT
I think it's going to have to come from multiple sources of credibility within the current and former UT99/2k4 competitive communities. We need people who's words carry weight with other competitive players and people who have actual credentials rather than just saying "I'm a competitive player" and then making a bunch of asinine statements that clearly demonstrate their lack of understand of true competitive gameplay.
 
#15 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: Sporx on 05/09/2014 12:45PM EDT
We can express our thoughts here while that materializes so they can use them as discussion points!
Guys theres money out there for maps and things with this workshop transaction system. If you guys do co-ops on new 1v1 / tdm maps and they become big everyone in the community DLs them. Do you understand how important that is ? And if push comes to shove we just smash them in their own dumb version of the game and spam our shit to the roof so its impossible for people to not watch.

Blow this thing up!
 
#16 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: wink on 05/09/2014 1:45PM EDT
I like that Sporx guy. Totally agree.
 
#17 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: mintek on 05/09/2014 2:05PM EDT
I dont think sending more people or people we deem high caliber enough matters. What matters is telling the truth for how it is.

We can give clear examples of other successful games, that went in a different direction epic went to show them it might have been a mistake and if they are attempting to rectify it, ill be happy.

You can look at sly demands list and see exactly what im talking about and use very real examples. Many of the tricks UT community adapted to over time were stripped down from the game because it was "unintended".

A more successful game say dota 2 is based on a mod were a huge amount of its current feature and complexity comes from unintended elements, engine limitations of wc3 and simple error. It was either kept in its original form or improved upon. When ever something is intended or not, if it enrich the game it needs to be in.

They stripped down the game, they thought it was the right call, i dont blame them for that, but other companies showed us its not the way to go for online games that survives more than a few months. People love uniqueness and to learn tricks. Youtube is filled with this, its what players love. Even Call of duty knows how it goes in this world.

Free to play game is the time when competitive and long term community matters, its how they make money.

This is not a hard issue for this game to work, modders and mappers only demand is a good and easy to use editor, they have that. Competitive players only demand good server options and complexity back in a simple package, they can have that. Rest is just gravy.
 
#18 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: dkrypt on 05/09/2014 2:28PM EDT
You're encouraging them to visit ProU forums?

What could possibly go wrong?
 
#19 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: Sporx on 05/09/2014 2:49PM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by dkrypt
You're encouraging them to visit ProU forums?

What could possibly go wrong?


Not me. Never said that shit. FUCK THAT.

https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?5017-My-advices-for-the-new-UT-By-GitzZz

Go. Flood. NOW!
 
#20 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: chicken- on 05/09/2014 2:56PM EDT
I agree with most of what's said here.

Netcode talk scares me and here's why. Can anybody give an example of a client-side hit detection that works without causing serious gameplay issues?

Quake Live is basically the only competitive arena shooter being played, it uses ping compensation, and it's terrible. People THINK or SAY it's accurate, but that's because quake's hitboxes are enormous even for the biggest skins (keel). I'm constantly hitting rail shots way behind the player, even after they've gone around the corner you can hit their hitbox as it lags behind. I don't want that kind of game.

The same thing happens in ut2k4, the same thing happens in UT99 zeroping, the same thing happens in UT99 newnet. Is this the best it can be, if so, I don't want it. If somebody can actually create a newnet that doesn't have laggy hitboxes and inaccurate positioning then I'd hope they'd be there making it from the ground up so that we don't end up with essentially 2 versions of the game. I agree that the game itself should be balanced on LAN, which UT99 was not.
 
#21 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: sLY1838 on 05/09/2014 3:37PM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by CombatCarl
Keep it "ping based?" That's easy to say when you're from Texas and a majority of games are played on Texas servers. The game play balance should be balanced as if it were LAN. UT99 was horribly unbalanced, and it worked. Weapon balance is over-rated. Map balance is under-rated.


First off, Carl I love you man. I look forward to dueling you in UT4.

Secondly, I get your point and it's a perfectly fair one. However, this ping compensation seems to have become a 'norm' in newer games (quake live, CS:GO, etc...) and it has it's own share of issues.

Thirdly, most games are played on Chicago.
 
#22 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: m3ss on 05/09/2014 3:49PM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by Sporx
https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?5017-My-advices-for-the-new-UT-By-GitzZz

Go. Flood. NOW!


Nice! Great to see some of the pros coming out of the woodwork.
 
#23 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: DagnyTaggart on 05/10/2014 2:50AM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by Sonic|^
I'd have to see who epic decides to listen to before I start to care about this. As of right now the forums are a clusterfuck and there is no clear direction. I agree with pretty much everything sly said.


That forum is a total mess right now, but it's encouraging that a horde of people care to register and flood it with new threads. It just demonstrates how much people loved the game.

Unsurprisingly, the UT99 v. UT 2004 debate kicked off almost immediately. Hopefully Epic will realize that UT is supposed to be a fragging game and not a dodge jumping, wall dodge flying hitscan-based hopfest.
 
#24 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: Myrkridia` on 05/10/2014 9:15PM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by CombatCarl
Weapon balance is over-rated. Map balance is under-rated.



This 100%.
 
#25 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: xDBS on 05/10/2014 9:43PM EDT
evolve the game, not make the same one
 
#26 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: NoAimNoMoves on 05/10/2014 11:42PM EDT
I'm super excited with the news but I will be thoroughly disappointed if the game is based on ping-compensation. This is the make or break for me. I cannot stand being shot when I am already around a corner on my screen and the other issues ping compensation brings. I would rather be ping raped. Other than that, I would prefer the movement to be similar to UT99 and the shield-gun to be left out.
 
#27 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: mintek on 05/11/2014 12:05AM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by xDBS
evolve the game, not make the same one


Evolve would be UT99 gameplay toward what UT3 core gameplay was. UT2k was not an evolution, it was more like taking some part of quake and tribe to make a new UT. My main concern is which one they want to evolve from.

UT2K went the way of all guns are situational, nothing like UT99 and even UT3.

I do agree map balance is underrated, but they both are as important. In the open tournament thread the launching and boosting argument popped up. People in favor of UT2K style gameplay will instantly advocate against launching because they are used to play some shitty ass maps with 300 yard high celling and rooms the size of Seoul.

In ut99 Launchs are more restricted due to the weapon balance, rockets are slower to load. Map which are favored in competitive matches are usually restrictive in which area of the map and how you can do it to be successful. Adding a translocator that does not blow donkey dicks to actually be able to do something against said launch and you have the reason why its so different.

Both balance are as important. Will it favor some classic elements or will it push to emulate more of a mix of parkour movement and quake weapon balance. Id personally prefer they just stick to their guns and improve upon the original like cs, dota, quake, games with legacy to uphold.

The argument that people need to move on is ridiculous.

Why dont counter strike players move on? They bitched with every transition from 1.6 to source to cs:go, the game barely changed in mechanics, nothing like UT to UT2K.

Why do quake players still play the same game that never evolved for a decade now?

Why does even the console kiddy know how stupid it is to trample on your core gameplay for the sake of making it new. Look at how shitty halo 4 is. (I mean compared to how less shitty the previous ones were) They threw random shit at it for the sake of making it "different".

The game does not need to change its mechanics, its what makes it what it is. It just needs to be improved upon. An exemple of how it can be done well is in that turd named UT3, its called the rocket launcher. Its the best version the game ever had, if everything in UT3 was up to that standard of perfecting an original concept, UT3 would be an amazing game.
 
#28 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: buddy on 05/11/2014 8:52PM EDT
have classic mode
have hardcore mode

see which one is more popular. play that competitively.
 
#29 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: DSK on 05/12/2014 9:30AM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by mintek
quote:
Originally posted by xDBS
evolve the game, not make the same one


Evolve would be UT99 gameplay toward what UT3 core gameplay was. UT2k was not an evolution, it was more like taking some part of quake and tribe to make a new UT. My main concern is which one they want to evolve from.

UT2K went the way of all guns are situational, nothing like UT99 and even UT3.

I do agree map balance is underrated, but they both are as important. In the open tournament thread the launching and boosting argument popped up. People in favor of UT2K style gameplay will instantly advocate against launching because they are used to play some shitty ass maps with 300 yard high celling and rooms the size of Seoul.

In ut99 Launchs are more restricted due to the weapon balance, rockets are slower to load. Map which are favored in competitive matches are usually restrictive in which area of the map and how you can do it to be successful. Adding a translocator that does not blow donkey dicks to actually be able to do something against said launch and you have the reason why its so different.

Both balance are as important. Will it favor some classic elements or will it push to emulate more of a mix of parkour movement and quake weapon balance. Id personally prefer they just stick to their guns and improve upon the original like cs, dota, quake, games with legacy to uphold.

The argument that people need to move on is ridiculous.

Why dont counter strike players move on? They bitched with every transition from 1.6 to source to cs:go, the game barely changed in mechanics, nothing like UT to UT2K.

Why do quake players still play the same game that never evolved for a decade now?

Why does even the console kiddy know how stupid it is to trample on your core gameplay for the sake of making it new. Look at how shitty halo 4 is. (I mean compared to how less shitty the previous ones were) They threw random shit at it for the sake of making it "different".

The game does not need to change its mechanics, its what makes it what it is. It just needs to be improved upon. An exemple of how it can be done well is in that turd named UT3, its called the rocket launcher. Its the best version the game ever had, if everything in UT3 was up to that standard of perfecting an original concept, UT3 would be an amazing game.


So you're not really interested in a happy compromise between the likes of UT99 and the UT2K* games, and are basically saying that UT99 is the one and only best UT game ever and it should be recreated in UT4.

The way I see it, with purists from both games, we're going to end up with a divided community yet again, with people adding/removing functionality that they don't want in their competitive version.
 
#30 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: sLY1838 on 05/12/2014 1:15PM EDT
DSK, not to harp on this UT99 vs 2k4 thing (because I did play both competitively, 24-1 2k4 CTF), but... UT99 had 220+ ACTIVE CTF clans on the OGL ladder in its first two years. This was just for North America. UT99 also stayed active and competitive for 14 years in MULTIPLE game types.

The same can't be said for UT2k3/2k4. The competitive CTF scene in those games lasted 6 months tops and never had more than 20 teams on a ladder. In fact, some of those teams were even inactive with 0-0 or 0-1 records. Beyond that, the 2k4 CTF pug channel is active about a month a year.

This has to attest to something.
 
#31 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: [Z]Mòó§ë on 05/12/2014 5:17PM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by sLY1838
DSK, not to harp on this UT99 vs 2k4 thing (because I did play both competitively, 24-1 2k4 CTF), but... UT99 had 220+ ACTIVE CTF clans on the OGL ladder in its first two years. This was just for North America. UT99 also stayed active and competitive for 14 years in MULTIPLE game types.

The same can't be said for UT2k3/2k4. The competitive CTF scene in those games lasted 6 months tops and never had more than 20 teams on a ladder. In fact, some of those teams were even inactive with 0-0 or 0-1 records. Beyond that, the 2k4 CTF pug channel is active about a month a year.

This has to attest to something.


Don't forget that many of those "220+ active clans" came back to try UT2k* and were very excited about its launch only to quit shortly after in disappointment. You'll never please everyone with a sequel but from my POV they lost the majority of current fan base from 99 to 2k*. Again, opinions are like assholes and yes I have one just like you Smile - love you
 
#32 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: DSK on 05/12/2014 5:26PM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by sLY1838
DSK, not to harp on this UT99 vs 2k4 thing (because I did play both competitively, 24-1 2k4 CTF), but... UT99 had 220+ ACTIVE CTF clans on the OGL ladder in its first two years. This was just for North America. UT99 also stayed active and competitive for 14 years in MULTIPLE game types.

The same can't be said for UT2k3/2k4. The competitive CTF scene in those games lasted 6 months tops and never had more than 20 teams on a ladder. In fact, some of those teams were even inactive with 0-0 or 0-1 records. Beyond that, the 2k4 CTF pug channel is active about a month a year.

This has to attest to something.


I'm sure it does, sLY. But by touting those figures, you don't necessarily add weight to your argument without further analysis, such as comparing the number of popular FPS games released at and around 1999 and 2003/4, and how much competition each UT release had at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_first-person_shooters#List

Furthermore, I'm not really sure as to why you are mentioning those figures anyway. It seems like you're basically trying to say that, because in the past UT99 was active and had a shitload of clans/teams competing, followed by mentioning the hardcore fans (such as yourself, who still play MLUT's when they arise) have the right to dictate what mechanics are perceived to be a good and which to be bad.

I'm quite sick of the flaming and constant bullshittery that takes place between the UT99 and 2K* communities. I'd like a game that would allow both proponents to play the same game without self-imposed segregation.

That is why I am asking as to why compromises can't be made, and for constructive answers/criticisms of as to why people think that certain mechanics of UT/UT2K3/UT2K4/UT3 are bad without using something as analytically deep as "its shit".

And yes, you've touted your 24-1 record more than enough, sLY Wink

quote:
i went 24-1 in 2k4 ctf. came back after not playing for 4 years and got 2nd place in the unrealness 3v3 tournament, only because our best player (amp) couldnt make the finals.. and we still almsot won.
 
#33 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: buddy on 05/12/2014 6:55PM EDT
i wonder how many of those 220 active clans had mostly 12 year olds playing on the team. i know at least half because linoleum aka little-cano has been in about 10000 clans.
 
#34 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: sLY1838 on 05/12/2014 9:35PM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by DSK
quote:
Originally posted by sLY1838
DSK, not to harp on this UT99 vs 2k4 thing (because I did play both competitively, 24-1 2k4 CTF), but... UT99 had 220+ ACTIVE CTF clans on the OGL ladder in its first two years. This was just for North America. UT99 also stayed active and competitive for 14 years in MULTIPLE game types.

The same can't be said for UT2k3/2k4. The competitive CTF scene in those games lasted 6 months tops and never had more than 20 teams on a ladder. In fact, some of those teams were even inactive with 0-0 or 0-1 records. Beyond that, the 2k4 CTF pug channel is active about a month a year.

This has to attest to something.


I'm sure it does, sLY. But by touting those figures, you don't necessarily add weight to your argument without further analysis, such as comparing the number of popular FPS games released at and around 1999 and 2003/4, and how much competition each UT release had at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_first-person_shooters#List

Furthermore, I'm not really sure as to why you are mentioning those figures anyway. It seems like you're basically trying to say that, because in the past UT99 was active and had a shitload of clans/teams competing, followed by mentioning the hardcore fans (such as yourself, who still play MLUT's when they arise) have the right to dictate what mechanics are perceived to be a good and which to be bad.

I'm quite sick of the flaming and constant bullshittery that takes place between the UT99 and 2K* communities. I'd like a game that would allow both proponents to play the same game without self-imposed segregation.

That is why I am asking as to why compromises can't be made, and for constructive answers/criticisms of as to why people think that certain mechanics of UT/UT2K3/UT2K4/UT3 are bad without using something as analytically deep as "its shit".

And yes, you've touted your 24-1 record more than enough, sLY Wink

quote:
i went 24-1 in 2k4 ctf. came back after not playing for 4 years and got 2nd place in the unrealness 3v3 tournament, only because our best player (amp) couldnt make the finals.. and we still almsot won.



I'm fine with compromises. All I am really asking for is a UT99 style translocator. The 2k4 guys got their tele limit in UT3 and we saw what happened there. Now it's time for the UT99 guys to get their tele back and let CTF thrive like it's supposed to.
 
#35 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: khemikal on 05/13/2014 11:48AM EDT
But but but how am I supposed to kill someone if they trans over my head Rolling Eyes
 
#36 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: iFlak on 05/16/2014 6:16AM EDT
Hi guys!

Which of you would act as a spokesperson or consultant for your site?

Cool to see some old faces here. Really glad you guys are still around!
 
#37 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: BryaN-- on 05/16/2014 7:04AM EDT
By any chance, do you have an old account here iFlak? If so let me know so i can email you the username and i'll do a password change for you.
 
#38 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: mintek on 05/16/2014 8:14AM EDT
Glad to see you post here Flak. Personally i believe people like Sly and Mess are currently doing a pretty decent job at pushing the general thought of the community of these forums on your very own site.

Most of us were pretty skeptical until we saw the new movement test videos, which is surprisingly good for such an early thing. Scale/movement wise.

If you want a representative to speak about this community involvement in the competitive aspect of the game in the future, id nominate Mess above anyone personally. Experienced administrator and our best commentator.
 
#39 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: Sonic|^ on 05/16/2014 9:00AM EDT
m3ss mentioned something about doing "talks" on his twitch channel, along with other members of the community. Like mintek my vote would be for m3ss...even if he doesn't want to. TOO BAD Razz
 
#40 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: m3ss on 05/16/2014 9:02AM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by mintek
Glad to see you post here Flak. Personally i believe people like Sly and Mess are currently doing a pretty decent job at pushing the general thought of the community of these forums on your very own site.

Most of us were pretty skeptical until we saw the new movement test videos, which is surprisingly good for such an early thing. Scale/movement wise.

If you want a representative to speak about this community involvement in the competitive aspect of the game in the future, id nominate Mess above anyone personally. Experienced administrator and our best commentator.


quote:
Originally posted by Sonic|^
m3ss mentioned something about doing "talks" on his twitch channel, along with other members of the community. Like mintek my vote would be for m3ss...even if he doesn't want to. TOO BAD Razz


Thanks very much for the kind words, guys. I am more than willing to assist in any way I can and would be happy to represent ProU. Sonic is correct, I've been entertaining the idea of doing a regular podcast or "talk show" in which members of the competitive community discuss the development of the game. I think it would be a great way to distill the massive amount of feedback on the forums into something more easily digestible.

By the way, welcome Flak! Great to have you here!
 
#41 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: mintek on 05/16/2014 9:18AM EDT
I want a spot on the show friend, TSM will provide grunting noises in the background. Perfect day.
 
#42 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: GS3k on 05/16/2014 9:35AM EDT
I vote for M3ss and Xellos to represent the U.T. '99 community.

I vote for Xios to be the mouth piece for the UT 2004 community.
 
#43 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: xDBS on 05/16/2014 10:13AM EDT
I have a very overwhelming post I was writing for the forums over there, its pretty long, not finished. And only about half way done.
 
#44 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: DSK on 05/16/2014 10:15AM EDT
m3ss sounds like a very level-headed candidate. I throw my vote in with him.

Also, welcome, Flak!
 
#45 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: xDBS on 05/16/2014 10:46AM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by GSWAG
I vote for M3ss and Xellos to represent the U.T. '99 community.

I vote for Xios to be the mouth piece for the UT 2004 community.


Just read this I would love to represent the UT99/2k4/UT3 community thank you David. I played all four games for hours on end (except UT2k3). Even tho I would love to represent the community, m3ss is also a excellent choice as well, love me some m3ss.

Welcome to the Forums Flak. Little dead over here anymore.
 
#46 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: xios on 05/16/2014 11:01AM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by iFlak
Hi guys!

Which of you would act as a spokesperson or consultant for your site?

Cool to see some old faces here. Really glad you guys are still around!


Hi Flak! I believe m3ss represent's this site very well and is a mature spokesperson so he also get's my vote.

I'd be honored to share or consult with you any feedback from the competitive UT2K4 base. Many thing's have been in discussion about the next UT for a long long time.

I have a thread in the works over on the UE4 forums as well and have quite a few to read through over the weekend.
 
#47 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: wink on 05/16/2014 11:10AM EDT
mind linking that thread xios?

I vote for xios, and xellos and idk mess but he clearly seems like everyone's fav.
 
#48 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: xDBS on 05/16/2014 11:31AM EDT
Does anyone want to maybe make a channel on IRC and make a portfolio of the competitive communities thoughts? So we can show the guys and gals at epic everything that we are thinking in one consensus so they aren't getting thoughts, opinions, and ideas all over the place from the same community?
 
#49 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: CombatCarl on 05/16/2014 11:45AM EDT
I think dreamraped should represent the UT99 community, and infinite should represent the ut2k3 community, and mjfossittx to resresent ut2k4.

THIS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.
 
#50 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: m3ss on 05/16/2014 12:30PM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by xDBS
Does anyone want to maybe make a channel on IRC and make a portfolio of the competitive communities thoughts? So we can show the guys and gals at epic everything that we are thinking in one consensus so they aren't getting thoughts, opinions, and ideas all over the place from the same community?


I think this is a great idea.
 
#51 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: iFlak on 05/16/2014 2:01PM EDT
Awesome Very Happy

Yes Bryandigm - I was here before, although I can't remember if I actually had the Flak screen name.

So M3ss is the man? I remember Xellos and Xios from the old days I believe.

M3ss is it ok if I send you a PM?
 
#52 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: m3ss on 05/16/2014 2:29PM EDT
Of course, Flak! Feel free to send me a PM anytime. I look forward to hearing from you. Very Happy
 
#53 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: GS3k on 05/16/2014 4:29PM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by xDBS
quote:
Originally posted by GSWAG
I vote for M3ss and Xellos to represent the U.T. '99 community.

I vote for Xios to be the mouth piece for the UT 2004 community.


Just read this I would love to represent the UT99/2k4/UT3 community thank you David. I played all four games for hours on end (except UT2k3). Even tho I would love to represent the community, m3ss is also a excellent choice as well, love me some m3ss.

Welcome to the Forums Flak. Little dead over here anymore.


The reason why I would want you to be the representative Josh (You're welcome by the way <3), is due to the simple fact that you're not as dogged in your view of what the penultimate U.T. experience is and you readily accept the pros and cons of both styles. We have to find a middle ground to bridge both communities so we can have one cohesive competitive community and ensure that every new fan this series draws will be funneling the same player base which will be required to keep this game thriving.

M3ss can represent the U.T. '99 community but I still want someone from the 2k* community to speak out as well. I don't find constantly dodging forward to be as fluid as dodge jumping in 2k* or strafe jumping in Quake and as much as you want to talk about M.L.U.T. as it was that is currently infrequent at best and is not indicative of what the next vision of Unreal Tournament should be. As my highly intelligent friend Josh put it - we need to evolve the game not just repackage an old one with slight improvements.
 
#54 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: m3ss on 05/16/2014 5:08PM EDT
I agree wholeheartedly with what you've said GSWAG and also think that Xellos is an excellent choice for providing balanced input given that he's played all of the different iterations of UT at the highest level. I fully intend to try and convey the opinions and desires of every competitive player/community here at ProU, not just the UT99'ers. I hope we can leverage the breadth of experience we have here to help the developers create a game that we're all happy with and can foresee ourselves playing and competing in for years to come. Let's spread the word!
 
#55 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: AudioMix on 05/16/2014 5:58PM EDT
Its just so lovely that we can all get along but I must insist, the 99 style TL is pretty much the whole ballgame.

Bring this skill back into UT gameplay and I will end up making maps and learning the engine all over again.
 
#56 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: xDBS on 05/16/2014 6:56PM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by m3ss
I agree wholeheartedly with what you've said GSWAG and also think that Xellos is an excellent choice for providing balanced input given that he's played all of the different iterations of UT at the highest level. I fully intend to try and convey the opinions and desires of every competitive player/community here at ProU, not just the UT99'ers. I hope we can leverage the breadth of experience we have here to help the developers create a game that we're all happy with and can foresee ourselves playing and competing in for years to come. Let's spread the word!


Let me know! I would be glad to help, ill finish up my post. And post it on ProU and the Unreal forum.. Or if we can maybe start a channel and get a portfolio that would be awesome. Would love to discuss weapon balance, gameplay aspects of CTF/TDM/Duel. Movement! Lets get a channel started!
 
#57 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: [Z]Mòó§ë on 05/16/2014 11:00PM EDT
My vote is also for m3ss to be the "spokesperson" of this site. I've known and worked with him (off and on) for over a decade and know he'll listen to input from all sides of the debate. Thanks m3ss and good luck Smile
 
#58 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: chicken- on 05/17/2014 4:36AM EDT
Talk to Infra` he started #UT4

Hi Flak Very Happy

And y3ss to the m3ss who will impr3ss
 
#59 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: sLY1838 on 05/18/2014 6:32PM EDT
Flak,

Welcome to ProUnreal. Glad to see you reconnected with us. While there are several good candidates to choose from, m3ss is probably the best at this time. He has several years experience playing, streaming, administrating, and putting up with jerks like me. He is a good representation and voice for the competitive Unreal scene.

We have a team put together that is working on a new ProUnreal and MLUT website in anticipation for UT4. So now is a great time to get back involved.

See you around!
 
#60 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: CombatCarl on 05/18/2014 9:55PM EDT
I'd like to welcome sLY back to his own thread. Love you, bro.
 
#61 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: Rutzy on 06/09/2014 12:32AM EDT
I'd like to welcome Rutzy back too.

Sup bros? I'm just going to say now that i'm with what Sonic said earlier- I have no hopes for this until I see a change in what's been done the last 15 years or so.

As an aside, I think "UT4" sounds too much like "ut2k4". not a good name to latch on to. should fast-and-the-furious that shit and just call it UT.
 
#62 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: sLY1838 on 06/09/2014 2:42AM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by Rutzy
I'd like to welcome Rutzy back too.

Sup bros? I'm just going to say now that i'm with what Sonic said earlier- I have no hopes for this until I see a change in what's been done the last 15 years or so.

As an aside, I think "UT4" sounds too much like "ut2k4". not a good name to latch on to. should fast-and-the-furious that shit and just call it UT.


That's what they are doing actually.
 
#63 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: High Voltage on 06/09/2014 11:03AM EDT
lol sly "acting" like an adult is priceless. this thread is one to go down in the books for mr sly
 
#64 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: chicken- on 06/09/2014 1:32PM EDT
quote:
Originally posted by Rutzy
I'd like to welcome Rutzy back too.

Sup bros? I'm just going to say now that i'm with what Sonic said earlier- I have no hopes for this until I see a change in what's been done the last 15 years or so.

As an aside, I think "UT4" sounds too much like "ut2k4". not a good name to latch on to. should fast-and-the-furious that shit and just call it UT.


I'll be calling it UT4 for now, but I'd hope Epic names it UT Open or something like that. It's frustrating when for example somebody may want to actually find information on the original with the same name.
 
#65 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: KronDog[LM] on 06/12/2014 2:20PM EDT
I played all of the UT games, and UT 99 was by far my favorite. I remember seeing so many full CTF servers that you could play a month of pubs and never see the same players. All the ladders had 100+ teams that were very active - RIP Proving Grounds.

UT 2k3/2k4 were alright, but there is no denying that the competitive scene was a pale shadow of the UT 99 scene. I ended up primarily playing 1v1 DM and TAM (shudders) simply because of the fact that TDM and CTF were always dead. The floaty movement and gimmicks like Adrenaline or the Shield Gun took away much of the teamwork aspect that made UT 99 so competitive. It took awhile for leagues to figure out what settings worked, and even then it was not consistent.

My hopes for the new game:
- UT 99 style Translocator (unlimited plz)
- No Shield Gun
- Dodges = yes, boost-dodge-jump = NO
- Focus on the classic tournament game modes for the vanilla game. (DM/TDM, CTF and DOM - maybe Assault). Let the community make the rest. Most new players to UT2k4 never knew there was a game-mode without vehicles and that's just sad.

In the end, I can't wait to play and hope it turns out great! I look forward to fraggin all you mufukahs. Very Happy
 
#66 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: KronDog[LM] on 06/12/2014 2:22PM EDT
Also - props to all involved with keeping this place up and going.
 
#67 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: CykoMoto on 07/28/2014 11:06PM EDT
Wow, my account is still active.

Just ran across the UT4 thread over at the unrealtournament.com site.

Pretty excited to see everyone stirring again.
 
#68 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: Bebo on 12/20/2014 8:46PM EST
To be a successful game UT4 will need to bring in a lot of new players. Lets face it, a lot of oldschool guys are never coming back and we'll need to make the competitive scene look accessible to newbies. Mainly this means not acting like dicks. Promoting in PUBs and telling random PUB players about prounreal.org and tournaments. Basically what Jane's Addiction and I were doing late UT3 to try and get PUGs active again. I'd rather scene a vibrant TDM scene than just 1v1's with the same 10 people.
 
#69 - Keys to making Unreal Tournament 4 a Success - Posted By: DagnyTaggart on 12/28/2014 3:02PM EST
quote:
Originally posted by Bebo
To be a successful game UT4 will need to bring in a lot of new players. Lets face it, a lot of oldschool guys are never coming back and we'll need to make the competitive scene look accessible to newbies.


The game is going to need tons of marketing, and it will probably need to be fan-based, viral marketing. I don't think Epic is planning to invest much, if any money, in marketing. Today's average gamer and FPS player has never heard of Unreal Tournament, so we're going to have a lot of work to do.
 
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